The real reasons for them being kicked out varied a bit between kingdoms, I’m no expert, but jews were very often labeled as a scapegoat for differeny problems, as they often has been, also recently as in ww2 or even more recent. But there are people who can give more in depth answers! :)
They are staying in their communities, ale closed to outsiders and help each other.
Because of that they can get better education and take better jobs, so usually they had more money.
Also their religion didn't ban them from giving loans with interest.
So people just hated people who did not integrate into their community, was hoarding money and had a lot of people own money to them.
The reason they gave was because if Catholics hung out with Jews some of them might be influenced to convert to Judaism.
That was the why. They decided that Catholics can’t be trusted with seeing another religion and be reasonably expected to remain catholic. It’s literally all over the expulsion decree.
But hey it’s much more fun to “just ask questions” than to talk about how it’s because they thought Catholicism was so not compelling that if people saw an alternative they’d peace out (at great risk to themselves)
Actually as much as 75% of the world's Jews lived in Poland in the 1500s.
While there were certainly bad incidents between ethnic Poles and Jews in Poland, the Polish crown was on very good terms with Jews. They had very strong legal protections and flourished as traders and tradesmen.
Ah yes, that's why Poles are listed as the nation with the highest number of Righteous Among Nations awarded to citizens by far.
Sure, there were collaborators - everywhere in every warzone there are treacherous scum. But really, touch grass Poles were prosecuted together with Jews and were the next in line to the chambers (literally, Slavs were classified as subhuman too), the recent propaganda is unreal and I don't understand why people insist on manipulating history.
It's not an either/or debate - polish partisans fought bravely for their country, and that's commendable too, in addition to what you wrote. There is no question that the poles were victims at the hands of the Nazis.
But being a victim does not mean one can't also be an abuser, so to try and wash the nation's hands clean of the horrors to which the jews of poland were subjected is not something I was gonna accept, hence my response. (The comment I responded to pretends that no polish hands pushed jews into the fire)
Note that I didn't say "by poland", I said "horrors the jews of poland experienced" - implying that while the instigators of the holocaust were the nazis, poles took a part in it - some unwillingly, and some willingly.
But antisemitism didn't begin with the nazis. See my other comment in this thread about the pre-ww2 pogroms, many instigated by the polish military. Even if you claim that during ww2 all violence against jews was done at the behest of the nazis and by coercion, the history of the nation is far from clean when it comes to antisemitism.
This history does not condemn the Polish nation today - but your denial of the past, does condemn you. And for what? National pride? Ego? Who is wronged when we admit the imperfections of our ancestors?
Believe me, I know a thing or two about guilt and shame. Beyond being a descendent of polish jews, I also have the unfortunate misprivilege of being born in Russia, and being Jewish with ties to Israel. It is shameful - I never considered myself Russian, but I'm still ashamed of what the country I was born in is doing in Ukraine, and the harm it has brought to other countries already. And I am ashamed of what the government of Israel and some of its citizens, the nation of jews and home of holocaust survivors, has and is doing to palestinians. I wish I could say these are things done by distant ancestors, but they are happening right now - and shameful as it is, the first step to dealing with it is admitting reality. I don't see this as being "self-hating", I see it as being smarter, kinder, and better than the previous generations, as we should be.
We aren't responsible for the sins of our fathers - but we are responsible for learning from them and doing our best to not repeat them.
My grandpa grew up in Warsaw, part of a large jewish family. The nice neighbours didn't need any coercion to sell them out to the Nazis, they were quite happy to be rid of the Zydzi and take their property. Nearly all of that family tree wiped out.
Wow, so much context is left out. For example - the simple fact anyone that aided Jews was risking death, at the hands of SS, it was prohibited by German "law" in the conquered lands. I'm sorry but for someo reason I see in the Jewish community a large amount of misinformation and straight up lies about Poland, and I don't get why.
I can suggest one reason why poland gets focused on - some other nations, especially the Germans, have at least attempted to atone for their sins. The poles and ukrainians and others who took part, did not - since they were also victims of the nazi regime they considered themselves morally "clean" from any wrongdoing. And I call BS on that.
Edit: And to be clear, I have nothing against Poles or Ukrainians today, generations have passed. I adore Ukraine and its people, I've travelled there many times and have made lifelong friends. I don't think Poland is inherently antisemitic or anything stupid like that. My issue is with people pretending that the uglier parts of their nation's past didn't happen.
I believe you dude, there were people like that as well, there is a derogatory term for them in polish „szmalcownik”. But this doesn’t change the fact that great majority of „helpers” were people who were forced to make an impossible moral choices.
Consider a situation. Germans roll into town. They take control of the town administration building where they have birth records of local population. They know how many Jews live there and their addresses.
They call for the Jews to assemble in the town square but nobody shows up. They go look but they can’t find them. Obviously they hide among polish population.
So the Germans roll into local school and take children as hostages and announce to the polish folk that unless they denounce the Jews the children will be killed.
What would you do in this situation?
I not antisemitic, I have absolutely nothing against Jews but if it is between my child and some random stranger my child always comes first.
And were the Nazis also forcing their hands in the pogroms that happened before WW2? The people of europe, poles included, never had much love for jews. Lets not pretend this was all no more than a terrible moral choice forced upon them.
Polish people held the most grudge and refused to collaborate with Germans (and Russians). The country just regained independce from them 20 years earlier, You think that anyone really wanted to threw themselves open to work with former oppressors? That's why they killed not only 3 milion jews, but also 2 million Polish people, a number unheard of in any other European country?
Why do You think f.e. Warsaw was razed to the ground and had to be completely rebuild in the 50s? Because we agreed profusely with Germans? No, because, as the only country in Europe there was no official collaborative goverment, military or social structures and nation as a whole was opposed. But there was an underground Polish goverment and schooling system in place and guerilla resistance, which grew from the army remnants.
Also, if someone was regarded as collaborator, he would have resistance members on their ass with death warrants. According to German statistics, Polish resistance just between 1942 and 1944 executed 12 000 of their own people who were regarded as collaborators. While the resistance itself had 120k official members in 1942 and grew to 380k in 1944. Worth adding, that there was only one official army unit that wilfully deserted to german side and consisted of about 1k people. So, that's basically 40:1 ;)
Were there collaborators, asholles and murderers? Yes. Did they harm the Jews? Yes. How many? The estimates are about 40 to 90k Jewish people. Which is about 1,5%-3% of total Jewish deaths and 2 to three times less than confirmed Jews saved by Polish people. So, do You think, which stance prevailed in the society as a whole? Especially if You think about the fact, that it is fair easier to rat out or stab someone, than to keep him hidden for six years? And that Germans would often kill two whole families, the hiders and the hidden at once?
But You know who took over in 1945? Russian communists. They had a lot of propaganda in place and they didn't like jews too. In later years, f.e. 1968 there was A LOT of anti-semitic propaganda by Commie goverment, which shaped the supposed views and stereotypes among the now-older generations. But, as in for today, those wievs seem to be widely dropped by the society since Poland truly regained independce in 1989.
No, Barry. Youre confusing "political europe" and "geographic Europe"They are not european union and withdrew from the council of europe last year. That doesnt mean the land mass stops being part of europe. You're English, were you not taught your own maps 🤣
what do you mean culturally its not? ofc it is culturally european I mean look at St. Petersburg it looks like any other European City. Politically its not alligned with Western Europe but that doesnt mean its not European.
I can’t say if Russia is European or not, I suppose the professionals say it is so I’ll go with that. All I know is Russia has desperately and pathetically wanted to be recognized as European while actively rejecting Europe in general for all of modern history.
thats just wrong. when has russia "desperately and pathetically wanted to be recognized as European while actively rejecting Europe in general"?
Russia always has been European and never cared about it. Even in modern time. Like look at the Imperial Court of Russia Compared to French courts for example they were strongly influenced by each other and married each other. So Imperial Russia was very European and Euro-centric. Some of the biggest ballet and opera halls are in Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Romanov
even before Imperial Russia was a thing the Russian Principalities were always considered European, spoke european (slavic) languages and were influenced and influenced European culture as a whole.
later russia was socialist. socialism is an european Ideology so being a socialist country cant be "rejecting Europe".
edit: also if you look at russian heraldry, architecture or art in general you can clearly see that it is much more influenced by europe than by asia
Well, all of them since Germany joined the list. Netherlands I think has been pretty solid. But I think that Europe's game of 'kick out the Jews' finally largely succeeded with that as Germany forcibly also crossed the NL from the list. Only like 17% of Jews worldwide don't live in either the US or Israel.
How is that ironic? They just didnt have the issues that came with a strong jewish minority until later due to their decentralization, but subsequently had a revolution when that centralization occurred.
I feel like they've been kicked out of like..a shitload of places throughout history for the same given reasons. I've been kicked out of almost every bar in my town because all the bar owners were jerks so I understand how the Jews must've felt.
Not a coincidence. After the 1492 Alhambra decree, Portugal took in some Jews (at a price, then forcing them to convert or shipping them out to São Tomé where most of the children died). But then King Manuel married Ferdinand and Isabella’s daughter (also Isabella) and agreed to expel them all in 1496.
Weirdly, a good number of Jews can apply for Portuguese citizenship. But so can a ton of people because the country has some insanely lax immigration policies as I understand it. Jews just don’t really feel like going there in large numbers.
They can apply for the Portuguese citizenship more easily if they prove they have sephardic jews ancestry. But i think that law changed recently and doesnt exist anymore.
True enough but as an Israeli citizen I can tell you there’s virtually no visible anti Semitism here. I have an Israeli flag on my terrace and usually wear a gold Star of David. The only comments I’ve ever gotten were positive. In fact having some Jewish ancestry is an odd point of pride it seems, I can’t count the number of Portuguese people who have told me they have it. I love living here and ruled out moving to other places because of being Jewish.
All jokes aside, it would be beneficial to people living in Pourtugal to live in Spain instead and Portugal becoming a province of Spain. Spain is better than Portugal, and it would look better on a map.
guess what i only out my portuguese name is of jewish origin after october 7 oh the fun that was the ones they did not expel had to hide and i guess the erosion of time almost made us look like we are not here
Also, the Spanish constitution automatically grants full Spanish citizenship to sephardic Jews (in fact, several victims of the Hamas attacks were listed as Spanish dual citizens)
Not true. There was a law that allowed people to apply for Spanish citizenship during a specific window between 2015 and 2019 (later extended to 2021). They still had to prove knowledge of the Spanish language and culture for your application to be considered, and jump through a lot of hoops, and even then half of the applicants were rejected, and then the window closed.
There was nothing “automatic” about it and it has nothing to do with the constitution.
There was nothing “automatic” about it and it has nothing to do with the constitution.
As a sidenot. Spanish law does simplify the process of acquiring Spanish citizenship for Sephardic Jews (and for people from Andorra, Portugal, Latin America, the Philippines, and Equatorial Guinea), needing only to live 2 years in Spain instead of the normal 10 years (or 5 years for refugees).
There still are fast citizenship tracks for Sephardic Jews and Latin Americans with ties to Spain (from at least 1 grandparent), requiring a 2 year residency instead of 10.
I don't think basic local language and culture proficiency tests are anything extraordinary. I.e. it's the same for US citizenship.
Not actually. Spain has around 50 million people and Germany almost doubles it. And we have, according to several comments, around half Jews as Germany does. So per capita it seems the same.
Spain as an empire, then as a kingdom and ultimately as a nation has been notoriously "good" respecting other people's life and culture and integrating them in the social structure. Muslim reconquest, early america colonialism, north african spanish provinces, etc. France and the UK were not as gentle, to put it simply.
That's why I can't understand the average conservative Spaniard riding a horse with a black eagle while embracing values that they invented and were legitimated, not by history or culture, but their own doctrine. That's not what Spain, throughout history, represents.
Not actually. Spain has around 50 million people, and Germany almost doubles it. And we have, according to several comments, around half Jews as Germany does. So per capita, it seems the same.
Yes, that's my point, you have the same number of Jews as Germany, a country that put them into extermination camps...
Spain as an empire, then as a kingdom and ultimately as a nation has been notoriously "good" respecting other people's life and culture
Eh? Spain even legally discriminated against "Creoles", Spaniards born in the Colony. That's one of the points of resentment the colonies had, not getting treated as Spaniards but being ruled by Spain. And then we're not even taking about the treatment of the natives which would often end up enslaved
Yes, that's my point, you have the same number of Jews as Germany, a country that put them into extermination camps...
Yeah, that's hilarious. Historically though, it's understandable. Spain the the XXVIII until XX century was an underdeveloped country and the interest of Jews (and other communities) to migrate there were lower than the richest countries on the northern part of Europe.
Eh? Spain even legally discriminated against "Creoles", Spaniards born in the Colony. That's one of the points of resentment the colonies had, not getting treated as Spaniards but being ruled by Spain. And then we're not even taking about the treatment of the natives which would often end up enslaved
Primero dices que no hay judíos porque no inmigraron, como si no hubieran vivido en España toda la vida hasta que los echamos a todos en el siglo XV.
Luego dices que no había discriminación y tu prueba es una ley aboliendo la esclavitud de los nativos americanos, como si no hubiera habido esclavitud de negros en las colonias durante siglos después de eso, incluso hasta el momento en que perdimos Cuba. Que no fue tanto como la bestialidad de los ingleses, pero vamos a ver.
Probably a bit more than that if you consider the lingering discrimination against crypto-Jews and their descendants to be a form of anti-semitism. There’s a group in Mallorca called the Xuetes whose ancestors were forcible converts to Christianity.
There aren't a lot of crypto-Jews in Spain. The Xuetes are basically the only that exist and, as shown on the map, there's ain't a lot of "lingering discrimination against crypto-Jews" (Blood Purity laws disappeared in the early 19th Century, mate).
If you're speaking about Spaniards that descent from Jews. Then that represents around 25% of the population.
But there's a big difference between being Jewish and having Jewish ancestry...
Seriously. This is some weird-ass comment if you think for one single second about it. This is taking an event that happened centuries ago (and laws that hadn't existed for 200 years), and deciding that Spain is still like that.
Do you think that Spain is still a very religious country? Do you think that the Spanish Inquisition is still a thing?
Well, "saved" isn't the term I'd use, but they did accept Sephardic Jewish refugees, yes. Unfortunately after a time leadership in the Ottoman Empire enacted laws and policies that were discriminatory, mostly for Jews that wished to live in Syria-Palestina.
If some people are trying to get rid of you and someone gives you refuge. That is 100% being saved, but you and I know why you refuse to use that term, then followed up with criticism of the same people.
I have no idea what you’re saying. If you need clarification I’m happy to provide it. Sultan Bayezid II approved the resettlement of Sephardic Jewish refugees. He was kind in that regard, but the policies of his empire prevented resettlement of Syria-Palestina en masse. His son whom ruled after him later began a campaign to deport some of those same Sephardic Jews. This is historical fact.
They were an autonomous eyalet though, so I wouldn't say they did nothing. The ones you're talking about were invited by Bayezid II to Istanbul and Thessaloniki. I wouldn't say hosting them in your land is considered "doing nothing"*.
"Sultan Bayezid II sent Kemal Reis to save the Sephardic Jews of Spain from the Spanish Inquisition in 1492" source
How about learning history, instead believing in the nonsense you Maghreb teachers tell you?
I meant the expulsion of Jews that somehow Spain is the only mentioned country when Jews were expelled all over Europe long before Spain did it and after too. Like the UK which expelled them before Spain did.
England expelled the Jews in 1290, before the UK came into existence and a couple of centuries before Spain. There was remediation under Cromwell after the UK was formed.
British politics has become very polarising the last decade, the same groups stocking the flames of culture wars there as do in the USA. A huge number of previously ignored minority groups have had hate crime incidents rise drastically, sadly.
Someday someone will be able to explain to me why everyone always brings up the expulsion of Jews from Spain as if it were something exceptional in Europe. It was not even the first place where it happened, nor the last. I am about to see the same thing said to the English or the French, among others.
Because it is an integral part of the black legend, which is at its core projection. A lot of European (as well as USA) societies used Spain to build up a caricature of a scape goat to project a lot of their own misdeeds/issues/mistakes/flaws.
Which is why even to this day, many Europeans and Americans get triggered when Spain is presented in a positive light about anything that doesn't have anything to do with tourism. Because it affects their foundational reality.
my brother in christ, every European country was kicking Jewish people out for the past centuries, and absolutely never took responsibility for it until now that they could transpose the fault to a different ethnic group
And even Poland has their own iffy parts of the history. It's not like a lot of their Jews ended up living in segregated Ghettos because they liked the views...
Actually Eastern Europe was the dumbing ground for most of Western European Jews. The reason it’s so low is because they made up the majority of holocaust deaths especially in Poland
Poland lost 3 million Jews and only over 100,000 to 300,000 thousand survived. That’s the biggest lost of Jewish population in all Nazi occupied countries
Well, obviously caring for your own life and wellbeing was more popular, what is your point even, not as popular as we are taught? It's not popularity thing, Poland was one of the worst oppressed countries under Nazi Germany, yet the one with the least amount of collaboration and the most robust partisan army.
That’s true, but the wast majority was absolutely indifferent to suffering of Jews, and other Poles. This is not well taught in schools, where Poles are painted as heroes. We were not, only some individuals.
my family didn’t do anything wrong either, as a matter of fact they saved quite a few Jews (including prof. Parandowski), but Poles as a whole wasn’t particularly good to be fair
I am afraid you are mixing Finland with Norway here.
Even though Finland indeed fought on the Nazi side, they did on a free will, they were not occupied by Germany (except a small part on the North in 1944 when Finland switched the side).
What? Not all. Poland had the highest number of jews at the start of WWII exactly because western countries have driven their out for the whole millenium, and they weren't persecuted there, so they could stay, even got some special legal rights.
Interesting, how does that compare with systematic murder in Germany and Austria less than 1 century ago? I mean, what was the number of jews in Germany/Austria at the end of the WWII compared to the same year in Spain
2.4k
u/E_Fox_Kelly 6d ago
Spain low on the list because they kicked them all out 500 years ago