“ Today, Austria has a Jewish population of 10,300 which extends to 33,000 if Law of Return is accounted for, meaning having at least one Jewish grandparent.[1]” - Wikipedia
“The contemporary Polish Jewish community is estimated to have between 10,000 and 20,000 members.[1][2] The number of people with Jewish heritage of any sort is several times larger.[32]” - Wikipedia
Their immigrant population is smaller than what other developed countries have, and much of it is due to desperate people fleeing war from a neighboring country instead of simply preferring to live there.
You think wrong then. Poland has a net positive migration since almost a decade. For example more people are migrating from US to Poland than the other way around.
Poland is a wonderful place, my favorite country to have traveled in Europe. I have zero trouble believing they’re positive on the migration front, but I’m curious to see the numbers from the US you mention. Can you post the link?
This is only up to 2020, but even then, the net migration Poland-USA was in favour of Poland. In the last 4 years there were also most likely more immigrants to Poland from US than the other way around.
That number is probably from last national census conducted 3 years ago. Just a couple months ago statistics shown that the number of foreign workers in Poland rose to 6%.
Yes, before let's say 2015 there was almost no immigration to Poland. That's why the foreign-born population is still law. But it has quickly changed.
And where did you get that number from? Because recent estimates show that around 4 million people are living in Poland. That's 10% of the population.
Having 60 thousands foreign nationals working legally in Poland in 2014 compared to 1.2 million foreign nationals working legally (as in they've applied for work insurance) in Poland 2024 kinda busts the claim that "no one wants to live in Poland".
Both of those numbers "4 million foreign nationals" and "1.2 million foreign workers with work insurance" show that the claim "no one wants to live in Poland" is incorrect.
Also, most of the immigrant population being people who are fleeing war next door is consistent the idea that it's not a popular place to move to. They weren't being literal.
Can't really see that 2.5% number there, but I see a lot of outdated information on that website so take the info from it with a pinch of salt. For example the website claims that
87% of Poles claim they are Catholic. That was true, but in 2011. In a recent 2021 census that number is 71%.
Or that Poland has negative net migration which has not been true since 2015
Or just a simple population number of Warsaw which according to the website is 1.7 mln, but in reality it's 1.9 mln
Also, most of the immigrant population being people who are fleeing war next door is consistent the idea that it's not a popular place to move to
60% of those 4 million are from Ukraine. Even if we assume that everyone moving from Ukraine to Poland is fleeing the war (which is not true, the Ukrainian population in Poland was already quite big before the war), then 1.8 million people from countries like Uzbekistan, Qazaqstan, India, Nepal, Colombia, Belarus, Philippines, Georgia, Armenia etc. are moving to Poland because they want to. People do want to go to Poland.
You're talking about millions of people. What do the percentages matter? Do you think several million people doesn't qualify as "a lot" unless they pass some percentage threshold?
Do you think several million people doesn't qualify as "a lot"
Not when compared to what other developed countries have, especially since many of them are people from a neighboring country fleeing war, which has more to do with desperation than preferring to live in Poland.
There still are hundreds of thousands of Polish workers in Europe, but they are mostly leftovers of those who emmigrated in around 2004 when Poland entered EU.
Since around 2015 more people are coming to Poland than leaving it. You can see it on this graph where the green line is immigration to Poland and the red one is emmigration.
By rapidly I mean that in 2014 there was 60 thousand foreign workers in Poland. In 2021 the number rose to 750 thousands. In 2024 the number is 1.2 million people.
And this also doesn't include refugees or those who work without work insurance. The estimated number of foreigners in Poland is even higher: 3.5-4 million people. That's around 10% of the Polish population.
The graph I've used only shows people who've got the permanent residency. It doesn't include workers so the numbers are much much higher than on the graph. I've only linked it to show the change in net migration.
The immigration numbers do not include Polish people. And I've quickly checked the stats and it's mostly people from Belarus, Ukraine, India, Nepal, Central Asia and Caucasus.
I'm English you moron. Better finish that pint you can barely afford and get ready to pick up my rubbish in the morning. Or have the, more competent, Poles already taken your job?
So we're once again going with "Eastern Europe is actually worse because different definition of crime! And also, a lot of crime there but nobody is reporting it!"? This gets boring. Can it just be as simple as Poland having less antisemitism than Austria?
How dare we use actual logic when talking about an issue, we should blindly accept all numbers in chart form without think critically about what the numbers mean!
That’s how dumb your statement is.
Austria counts doing a hitler salute, even as a joke, as an antisemitic incident, does Poland?
Polish law doesn't define "antisemitic incidents" . It does, however, define "propagating nazism, communism, fascism or any other totalitarian form of government or calling to hate based on differences in nationality, ethnicity, race, religious belief (or lack thereof)" as a crime punished with up to three years in prison (article of 256 of Polish Penal Code). Same goes for promoting nazi, communist, or fascist ideology or calls for violence as a means of influencing politics or society. Same goes for production, import, trade, possession, display or transport of items bearing such content unless the party in question committed that act for the purpose of education, science or art.
Which point exactly did I prove, that people will think critically about what the numbers actually mean? Unlike you I think that thinking critically is a GOOD thing.
I assumed you were just an idiot, not someone actively pushing propaganda and getting mad when people think slightly about your bad arguments.
I'm eligible for an Austrian citizenship because they Holocausted my grandpa, but the process seems intentionally difficult. IDK, I'm pretty sure it'd be easier to get polish citizenship.
I mean they drove us out of the land where we built a life. last I checked, they denied almost all such applications. It feels like they're paying lip service to restorative justice more than anything else.
honestly? I've never been to europe. Whatever man; maybe they're not hateful towards a particular class of people. I've heard the FPO is pretty radical and I continue to see measurements show that Austria is comparatively anti-jewish.
The FPÖ (who is not in power yet btw) is anti-muslim and anti-immigration. And because many antisemitic incidents in Austria are committed by muslims and Palestine is muslim they at least pretend to be pro-Israel and to be concerned about antisemitismn.
To be honest I'm a bit concerned by how many people take a map like this at face value without questioning where these numbers come from or what they actually show. Usually when there's an outlier like this it means that they are comparing different things.
In this case most countries show police statistics while Austria shows a number by the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde in Vienna and that's a huge difference. Because the first only shows incidents that were serious enough to report them to police and which were then filed as antisemitic by police. The latter includes social media posts etc.
That's his point. A very pro-Israel government may qualify simply wanting a two state solution as antisemitism. Or saying "the conflict is far too complex to assign blame based simply on the most recent attack".
Likewise, a pro Palestine government may consider boycotting of Jewish businesses, and entertaining the idea of "Israel had this coming" as simply voicing opinions.
The assumption that the qualifiers of "antisemitism" are equal is entirely false.
These days, “pro Palestinian” protestors would accuse you of genocide for suggesting a two state solution. The new orthodoxy is that Israel has no right to exist (and if, in practice, this means that there would never be a Palestinian state, that’s totally fine, given that their real goal is to feel morally superior)
What do you think “from the river to the sea” means?
Different things to different people, but most people I speak to seem to argue it's for freedom and human rights for Palestinian people in the entire area.
Note that under most conceptions of a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders, the state of Palestine would include land that stretched from the river (West Bank) and the Sea (Gaza).
It is tho. Antizionism ignores 3 millenia of indigenuity and reinforces the same lies the nazis told during WW2, in fact Hitler even colaborated with palestinian authorities during the war to make sure jews wouldn't escape to Canaan and restablish a home where they could be safe from the nazis.
But the 2 state solution isn't antisemitic (nor antizionist), just to be clear.
People returning to an area where they have a historical, cultural, or religious connection is completely different than establishing a new country, and absolutely different from establishing a religious ethnostate.
Do you understand that? Jews, Christians, and Muslims have cohabitated in that area for 1000’s of years. Israel or no Israel.
Yeah, but as a agnostic who is concerned purely about proven history, let's face historical facts for a moment:
The religion that "created" both the muslim and chritian G-d's is the jewish one, which was indigenous to that people in that region. Then the romans kicked the jews out of their land, renamed it from Judea to Palestine and used their religion as the base to create a new one. Later Muhammad went to create his own variation based both off judaism and christianity with some other elements, which became the islam. 2 different religions who basically "stole" a indigenous G-d. Both those religions use the name of this deity to proselytize other people, while the original religion didn't seek out converts and didn't use their religion to kill and persecute people lile both christianity and the islam were used for
That's historical facts, I have no prejudice against any of those faiths, but from a historical pov they only coexisted in Canaan during the last 2 milenia because the indigenous jews had no fucking choice
And hey, many jews and and even israelis don't agree 100% with how things were done, but that doesn't make you necessarily antizionist. Antizionism is being against the creation of the State of Israel in any way, denying completely the jewish indigenuity. And about being a etnhostate, cmon man... Almost muslim countries are ethnostates, while Israel is a religious state, but it isn't 90% jewish like the muslim world which is 90% muslim.
Israel isn't near as problematic as antizionists picture it, because antizionism is antisemitism. They will never put things like they really are: Israel is a progressive country in the middle of a conservative religious subcontinent.
You can be LGBT, atheist, christian, muslim, etc without being killed for it. How about criticizing the atrocities commited by Iran and other countries in that area? Crictics to Israel are necessary, but only when they are made by people who also know how to critize other countries who do the same or even worse.
You realize Jews Muslims and Christians still live in Israel and experience the same rights? Other religions practice freely without discrimination or fear of being ostracized. Unlike the 20+ Arab countries that actually are ethnostates and treat their non Muslim citizens like dhimmis
The Arab world demonstratively ethnically cleansed the Jews from their lands over the last 75 years. The idea that Jews would be safe or welcome if Israel ceased to exist seems pretty clear.
So based on this logic let whites define racism against other ethnies and men define feminism! How could it go wrong right? The victims don't know what hurts and offends them, the agressors do! Smh
No, that sounds coherent and based on logic. Can you prove me wrong? Because my point is solid and you seen to lack any valid arguments against it. The only one who can define what hurts them is the victims themselves. How is this afirmation wrong?
For one thing, here in reality, we don’t get to choose one factor that is the only thing we consider. For another, when a victim starts to perpetuate bad shit, it needs to be addressed.
And you lack a serious amount of nuance. I never said that the opinion on what Jews find harmful shouldn't be a factor in defining antisemitism. I said that Jews shouldn't be the only ones in forming the definition because otherwise driving too close behind a car with a Jew in it would end up being antisemitism. I'm exaggerating ofcourse but the point is: You need a neutral, objective party to define, after taking every opinion into concideration, what is antisemtism and what is not.
And concidering the topic I specifically zoom in on Jews and antisemtism here but it goes without saying that this goes for any kind of racism or discrimination.
I mean, if minorities that are victims of hate crimes aren’t allowed in the conversation, make it across the board. If you think only Jewish people are allowed to be excluded from conversations on antisemitism, but women cannot be excluded on sexism, or queer people for homophobia, then you aren’t saying we are biased because of the antisemitism, but rather you are biased by your own antisemitism and beliefs of Jews.
With this comment you swing from one extreme to the other. The comment I replied to suggested that only Jews should have a say in what is antisemtism and what is not. Your comment suggests that Jews shouldn't have a say at all. Which is exactly what I ment with a 'Reddit-level comment'.
My comment only stated that the former does not result in an objective view. There is still a very wide range of options that my comment leaves open between 'Only Jews should have a say' and 'Jews shouldn't have a say at all'.
So is the UK, 2nd in that list. That doesn't feel like a coincidence.
But the data is from 2023, which pre-dates the most recent Israel/Gaza incidents, so much of the political anti-semitism we've seen this year won't be included.
First off, motherfucker, we were talking about Jeremy Corbyn being antisemitic. You coming in outta left field with this shit.
And then, secondly, none of it's relevant because I never expressed that I supported Netanyahu's war crimes. I didn't even imply it. I wasn't in the vicinity of it.
You came in with this whataboutism when we're talking about a guy praising antisemitic terrorist groups. The Middle-East was rife with antisemitism for centuries before Israel was founded; the idea that antisemitic terrorism wouldn't exist without the colonizers inspiring it is ridiculous. The issue of rising anti-Semitism in the Arab world is too large to be singularly ascribed to a particular incident.
Or do you want to discuss how Jews lived in the Ottoman empire? The treatment of dhimmis?
Pro-Israel in the modern era has been co-opted by fascists as the (perceived) Israeli ideal of a highly militarised country dedicated to the protection of a narrowly defined “native” ethnic group appeals to European fascists, and is a justification for their own desire to strip rights from gypsys, “migrants” and other outsiders.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that such people would welcome Jews in their own country, as that would conflict with their idea of ethnic purity in their own borders.
Hence a country like Austria, which regularly elects neo-Nazis (eg the “Freedom” party) can be both pro-Israel and anti-Semitic.
This is augmented with the rightward drift of Israeli politics from which strange alliances have formed: e.g. Benjamin Netanyahu’s son endorsed and shared a virulently anti-Semitic caricature of George Soros, and was cheered on by the anti-Semites in far-right of Hungarian politics for doing so.
Cuba is also also labelled as a “authoritarian” country even though grassroots organisations such as labor unions, farmers’ associations, womans’ organisations as well as local neighborhood councils (CDRs) hold heavy influence over the government. The Communist Party of Cuba isn’t even allowed to run candidates in the electoral elections which seat the municipal and national assemblies. It has just passed a family code referendum, greatly strengthening gender equality, legalising same-sex marriage, same-sex adoption, and altruistic surrogacy, and affirming a wide range of rights and protections for women, children, the elderly and people with disabilities.
They rank Ukraine a "hybrid regime", the country where opposition parties are illegal, leftists are jailed and tortured, a woman just got 10 years for criticising a state worshipped nazi genocider, and elections were suspended.
They give a high rating to the United States, who’s legislation is written behind closed doors by monied interests (consultants) and which regularly disregards the wishes of the masses.
i like cubans we got got gold and silver in 2 olympics because a refugee went to the portugal team. how many ukrainians do see running for other teams? slava ukraina
The US democracy index is at an all time low, due to the Republican party’s rejection of democracy, stuffing of courts, Project 2025 and January 6, so that’s not the convincing comparison you thought it was.
Israel’s PM is charged with corruption and tried to legislatively neuter the Supreme Court to get away with it.
His coalition includes former terrorists and religious fundamentalists who want to take rights away from women.
Even before Hamas’s recent atrocities, members of his government were talking about a “greater” Israel in which Palestinians had been driven out.
What slogans? Ones that call for the destruction of Israel (which is home to nearly half of the world’s Jews; thus destroying an ethnic group with intent in part; which is exactly in-line with the actual definition of genocide)? Those slogans?
Bud I know the whole history much better than you.
Your point is idiotic. The destruction of Israel has only one way it can come about… via armed conflict. Fortunately most of Israel’s neighbors have learned the hard way (first in ‘48, then ‘67 and even ‘73) that they won’t go quietly. If Israel had lost any of those wars they would have been annihilated with mass intentional killings of the Jewish population and the remainder of Jews ethnically cleansed.
Instead, because Israel won that did not happen and those conflicts resolved with Egypt, and Jordan along with much of the Arab league deciding it would be best to make peace vs continue to fight Israel endlessly. This peace process continues with normalization between Arab states and Israel. Now the main instigator of violence is Iran in partnership with the Hamas and Hezbollah.
The destruction of Israel would only come about via a violent armed conflict (most likely combatants now being Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran) which if Israel lost… would result in the destruction of the Jews living there most likely (that’s an actual genocide) and at a minimum full displacement of Jews (ethnic cleansing).
That’s reality… not your regarded western commie fever dream of a non violent destruction of the Israeli state and/or magical one state solution. Grow up.
I never said anything about the destruction of Israel not being violent.
The US and it's zionist puppet instigated this by illegally invading and settling Palestine, creating an illegal apartheid state. Their genocidal government has made multiple statements on their intentions to ethnically clense the rest of the country.
They have shared an intention to form a "greater Israel" over lands that do not belong to them, and that currently have other ethnicities living in them for many generations.
Austria has only 4 times more jews per capita. Poland has 0,1% of muslims, Austria has around 10%… I don’t want to point fingers but it’s the european countries with the highest % of muslim population who also happen to be the most antisemitic…
We have so many bare foot Islamist imported.. Erdogan small pepe Wolfs and Syrians and Afghans and basement Nazis. Latter ones we always had. Also the data seems fishy. Any sources or are we looking at a map of a single study?
antisemitic incidents depends on how they are reported and counted. it could just be Jews in Austria trust the government and/or authorities more to report, or the authorities take it more seriously to keep record
Do Poland and Austria apply the same definition of what counts as an antisemitic incident? Could it be that one country is more proactive in addressing the issue so they do better jobs of tracking these things?
Is it possible that relying on the countries to both classify AND track the incidents will lead to low numbers for countries that are the most antisemitic because it’s not something they would care about?
These aren’t actually questions, it’s how this shit works.
Vast majority of Poles don't even attend church, the catholic population is currently declining and a centre-liberal government has been elected in the last elections. Poles are neither catholic nor conservative.
You see, you lack context thus because you are an outsider looking in. It's about a century long rivalry of two high skilled football clubs from Cracow. One is called dogs (from "police" origins) another jews (from, well Jewish origins). It has nothing to do with religion or animal abuse but football hooligans.
There even is a historical Jewish district in Cracow that should predominantly be a target of such graffiti but somehow isn't. Because it isn't about religion.
Frankly throughout history Poland and also nowadays Poles were ok with Jews. It's not our fault that some Austrian painter got mad at them.
The last part, in particular, of your post is a complete whitewashing of a difficult and troubled past that cannot simply be laid at the hands of an Austrian painter.
You are right that the painter wasn't the only problem but he is THE reason why there are no Jews in Poland. There was also Russia, Prussia and Austria-Hungary when they decided to split Poland. Let me cite Wikipedia for you.
What was before 1000, I dunno Poland barely existed back then at all.
Poland was extremely welcoming to Jews, from like 1000 to 1500, even called paradise for Jews and sheltered 3/4 of world population of Jews. Poland/Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth allowed them to have own fields, created Jewish school.
From late 1500 to late 1600 their situation got worse, but many incidents were caused by external or nondiscriminatory forces like Swedes, Jesuits or thwarted uprisings.
Things got way worse because of partition by Prussia, Austria and especially Russia. The Polish government didn't have much to say at the time.
Then after regaining independecne Poland again invited Jews. Then WWII and slavery under USSR. Some basically whenever Poland ruled themselves Jews didn't have it bad and certainly better than in many neighbours if not the best country to live in as a Jew.
Again you seem like a westerner trying to gaslight and project your values and your guilt/ historical mistakes onto others.
Tell me more about whitewashing, I'm willing to learn
You need to read actual histories that talk about what Polish people actually did around and in World War 2, which you notably skip over. As I said, the relationship of Christian Poles with Jewish Poles is not a simple one. That’s merely a fact - you seem to be unaware and wedded to a history of partial and patchwork truths and to dismiss those who do not agree as “westerner.” Well - that does not alter the fundamental reality.
What else would you attribute “f*ck Jews” graffiti to?
I haven’t been to Poland. My ancestors lived there though and faced continuous antisemitic persecution. It wasn’t as bad as Ukraine but it was bad. Unlike Austria, Poland has not become liberal. I’m sure it’s not as bad as it was in the 1920s but it’s certainly worse than a relatively progressive country like Austria. Anti-immigrant sentiments alone will tell you that.
In Cracow there are two football teams, one of them is pejoratively called Jews in Polish (Żydzi). So when you see such graffiti in 99% of cases it is toward one of those clubs. There are strong hooligan supporting both of them.
The only antijewish sentiments you'll see in Poland are those towards armed military that are escorting school trips from Israel. Because those are ridiculous and those bodyguards are aggressive towards bystanders, people that walk on sidewalks etc. and have diplomatic passports, so it is hard to prosecute them.
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u/Low-Image-1535 5d ago
“ Today, Austria has a Jewish population of 10,300 which extends to 33,000 if Law of Return is accounted for, meaning having at least one Jewish grandparent.[1]” - Wikipedia
“The contemporary Polish Jewish community is estimated to have between 10,000 and 20,000 members.[1][2] The number of people with Jewish heritage of any sort is several times larger.[32]” - Wikipedia
And Poland’s supposed to be the antisemitic one 🤔