r/PublicFreakout • u/Fuck_The_Future_ • 6d ago

Trump double-downs on Haitian's again today in Arizona. They are taking geese. đŸȘż geese here illegally from Canada 😡

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u/recursion8 6d ago

It’s true but they aren’t illegal, the US govt gave them temporary 18 months status to stay and work in the US after the earthquake and subsequent collapse of Haiti into open gang warfare and assassination of the president with no replacement.

The govt did not however direct them all to come to this one town. They were recommended/recruited there by a temp work agency because the town has a lot of job openings and cheap housing/CoL. They are diligent workers and crime has not increased since they arrived. Mainly the issue the town has is a lot of them don’t know how to drive properly, with one getting into an accident with a school bus that killed an 11 year old (it was not a murder like Trump and MAGA tried to say it was).

On YouTube you can easily find a PBS NewsHour report on the town interviewing local business leaders, local govt officials and the Haitian immigrants.

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u/justinpatterson 6d ago

This is not entirely true. Crime has increased in the area, to be fair. They don’t collect citizen status data in those statistics, so it’s not necessarily the Haitian immigrants. The entire town is under substantial strain, primarily in healthcare and education.

It should be noted though that on average across the United States, immigrants typically commit fewer crimes than citizens.

All this cat and Goose stuff is pure xenophobia to me.

New position created to reduce violent crimes in Springfield

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u/654456 6d ago

So what you are saying is that the government should step in a provide support to the city and the immigrants because a capitalist company decided to use the them for cheap labor.

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u/justinpatterson 6d ago

Not at all. Basically capitalist companies should have reported their plans since it appeared to be a concerted effort. I do think local governments, had they known beforehand, could have prepared — but they didn’t. Now they have to do it on the fly, and it’ll come with growing pains. But think Springfield will be stronger for it in the coming decade.

I’m on the Haitian immigrants’ side in this. Just providing context because there WAS an increase in crime, as a counter point to the above comment that stated there wasn’t. Usually there isn’t — immigrants on average do not contribute to crime, drugs, guns, etc.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear on the side or if I was myself sounding xenophobic. I promise I’m not on the side of people making up a bunch of stupid shit to further alienate a population of vulnerable asylum seekers.

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u/654456 5d ago

I think we are in agreement. My point was more that the company that brought them all to this city should have done a better job of working with the city ahead of time to prepare for the influx. They didn't because they only care about their bottom line and exploiting the immigrants.

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u/justinpatterson 5d ago

Sure, we’re on the same page.

While I’m pretty “fuck capitalism” myself, I will say that this setup seemed like many mid-size businesses were requesting immigrant workers because the town itself lost much of its original younger population, rather than it being just a matter of exploitation. It’s hard to see the motivations clearly at the moment. Everyone working is inherently exploited in the system either way, from one perspective.

But either way, yes: the companies that requested thousands of immigrants cumulatively absolutely should have been attending committee meetings for years and bringing up these plans to the local government.

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u/BigBallsMcGirk 6d ago

The vast majority of immigration to the US is to exploit a cheap labor force.

You cannot complain about depressed wages since the 70s, and not address immigration as a driving force in wage stagnation.

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u/654456 5d ago

It's a factor for sure but the solution isn't to shut the door and demonize the immigrants. The solution is to streamline the process to become a legal citizen, where they do not have to take the cheaper wages for the benefit of staying in the US. We have given companies as hammer to abuse immigrants with the current implementation of work visas. I have seen it first hand as I live in a city that has a large influx of Indian immigrants working for a corporation that absolutely uses their legal status as a way to prevent them asking for more money. If the immigrants around me rub their boss the wrong way they are contractors usually and can quickly be found without a visa and on their way out of the country.

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u/BigBallsMcGirk 5d ago

So you're backing into a great iasue with immigration. How many is too many?

US let's in the most immigrants, by far, of any country on the planet. Streamlinging the process to just do the same thing but make it legal does nothing to address that you have diluted the value of labor by adding workers.

It's okay for the US to say no at a border.

I'm not saying shut it down, and immigrants are people that deserve dignity and respect and to be treated humanely (jesus I can't believe that has to even be said). But the solution to too many people overloading the bureacracy is not to make the bureaucracy rubber stamp and legalize the same amount of people coming into the lavor market.

My idea would be any W9s submitted for Form 1099 contract laborer that bounce back with an incorrect or stolen SSN/ITIN make the hiring entity responsible for payroll taxes from the beginning date of work. So immediately a year's worth of back taxes and 100% penalties unless you do your due diligence in hiring legal workers.

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u/jyper 6d ago

That article cited numbers for 2021, it's now 2024. Basically crime has been going down significantly nationwide since the early 90s but it has a significant spike followed by a significant drop because of Covid. I don't know what the 2024 or 2023 numbers are like in Springfield but based on national numbera I'd be skeptical of assuming theyre up above 2020 numbers.

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u/justinpatterson 5d ago

That’s a fair point. As far as I can tell after researching news sources, the numbers continued to climb in 2022 but I can’t see beyond that: https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/immigration/residents-springfield-speak-immigrant/amp/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3uz_MO4SM1_gKW8eDt2Nx-82jV1_OBAl2DFzAn7nAaHO0mY8p1aDI0sDA_aem_acI_Zv_E3SJB6bdvl55M5A

Let me know if you have luck finding more recent statistics.

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u/Free_From_Reddit 6d ago

This raises a point that makes me mad. The people in the city are crying about strained resources
 wtf is the town doing with all the new revenue they’re getting from all the new employees? New residents means an increased need for more public resources. They’ve had years to adjust. Insane how people of this once failing town are now blaming the new people coming in to revitalize it instead of blaming the town for not putting in the time and resources to adequately welcome them.

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u/justinpatterson 6d ago

From what I was reading from local newspapers — they are adjusting. The local government is trying. They’ve massively beefed up their education resources for kids, provided new multilingual classrooms, etc. But infrastructure and housing takes far more preparation and red tape to clear through. The infrastructure appears to be the primary problem, and that’ll take time.

I agree it’s absurd to blame the immigrants for this stuff when the town’s businesses literally asked for it. The businesses should have also been public with their plans to local committee and government so they could have been ahead of it. I’m not politician though, who knows.

The Haitian immigrants escaped hell and have this opportunity, only for the country to spit in their face.

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u/Free_From_Reddit 6d ago

True, I’ve got to give the town credit for trying. Im more upset at the citizens (granted, it seems like a very vocal minority) for complaining about immigrants instead of pushing the town to do more and volunteering for local causes.

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u/barontaint 6d ago

If you're willing to chase down and kill and clean a Canadian goose or stray cat without injury you might deserve your dinner considering it would be so so much easier to just steal an already cleaned chicken from the grocery store, hell the rotisserie chickens are only $6, steal two of them, around here no one would stop you, it's just kinda a dick/desperation move to steal food, but I think most will turn a blind eye to it, well I look the other way maybe not others though

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

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u/justinpatterson 5d ago

You’re right, I suppose I should clarify: “illegal” immigrants commit fewer property, violent, and drug crimes than natural born citizens. There are studies that go cross-country that confirm similar findings, but here’s one from Texas: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate

Yes, all immigrants applying for asylum are technically illegal until served papers approving it.

However, those in Springfield were documented and approved for asylum and given work by government programs. Not sure if you insinuating that they were still illegal, but just in case I added this for clarity as well.

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u/Kern_system 5d ago

Asylum? They come from across the world looking for asylum only in the US? I'm calling BS.

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u/justinpatterson 5d ago edited 4d ago

Which part is BS, the idea that they’d be coming to the US for asylum? Is “They” in your statement referring to Haitians in general?

It’s something that’s been going on for 50 years due to continued political turmoil and human endangerment in the country. They’ve had a prolonged humanitarian crisis since the 1970s.

https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/haitien-immigration-to-the-u-s-1972/

https://www.oas.org/juridico/english/gavigane.html#:~:text=Haitian%20refugees%20had%20actually%20begun,and%20branded%20them%20economic%20migrants.

Also — Across the world? They’re just south of Cuba. The routes they take to the US are well documented and understood.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/how-haitian-migrants-make-their-way-to-the-us-border-idUSL1N2QQ1XB/

Also, it’s not “only” the US. While I don’t know numbers, I do know they seek refuge in several safe(r) countries including Brazil, Canada, and the DR in addition to the US.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/haitians-flee-collapse

I’m not quite sure why you’re feigning incredulousness over something that’s been going on since Nixon. Notably in the 1980s Reagan started the US pattern of intercepting ships suspected of having Haitian refugees / “illegal” immigrants to turn them back.

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/30/us/reagan-orders-aliens-stopped-on-the-high-sea.html

Even Biden’s administration continued to show patterns of turning down Haitian asylum seekers. Many still get through the asylum process, to be sure, which is why the situation in Springfield involves them, but there are still countless rejected and physically blocked over the decades.

https://www.vox.com/22689472/haitian-migrants-asylum-history-violence

Was I misreading your statement, or was it sarcasm? The reasons for, and how, Haitians have sought asylum in the US are well understood and have been going on for a long time.

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u/Jmacz 6d ago

Not trying to pile on the Haitians, because they are very nice and hard working people. And my city has had a very large Haitian community my entire life. But the bad driving thing is spot on, they should be doing something more to acclimate them into driving in the US before they get their license.

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u/Cats-N-Music 5d ago

Thank you for explaining this. I was out of the loop with the whole Springfield thing.

Can you please explain why he keeps mentioning Aurora, CO too?

Thank you!

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u/asdsadsadsadsaaa 6d ago

they aren’t illegal

Even if TPS didn’t exist and get granted, they still wouldn’t be illegal.

Nobody is illegal.

If they lack documentation to reside and work, then they are undocumented.

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u/FriendsSuggestReddit 6d ago

Bro wtf a child died? This is the first I’ve heard of that. Why are they letting them drive? Does this town have no buses?

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u/Cultjam 6d ago

The father of the child killed does not want his son’s death politicized.

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u/FriendsSuggestReddit 6d ago

Neat. The person that killed his child shouldn’t have been driving a car.

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u/Cultjam 6d ago

Because they’re Haitian? If they were an American then the kid’s death would be ok? What makes one bad and the other irrelevant?

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u/FriendsSuggestReddit 6d ago

You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth.

Whose car was it? Did the person driving it own it? How did they afford it? Where did they get it? Is it insured? Do they even have a license? Where were they driving to? Where were they driving from? Were they on their way to the job that they’re supposed to be working in order to have this opportunity that they’ve been given?

Lots of questions to ask. I’m sure I could find these answers if I sought them out.

Clutch your pearls away from me, please. It serves no purpose to anybody.

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u/Cultjam 6d ago

No, you made a decision before you had any answers to those questions, a few of which aren’t relevant, especially that last one, yikes. Ohio has over 1,000 traffic fatalities a year, why should this one be singled out?

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u/FriendsSuggestReddit 6d ago

You made a decision before you had any answers to those questions

I didn’t make a decision. I expressed a feeling. That was apparently a problem for you.

I ask all those questions rhetorically because I know they’ve already been asked by the police. The police have all those answers already, too.

Why should this one be singled out?

Because it’s a part of the story that people seem to be actively excluding. Why is that?

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u/Wizard_Enthusiast 6d ago

It's an American town, what do you think?

Honestly, driving is something a lot of people aren't nearly as good at as they think they are. We're constantly killing each other in cars. A fatal traffic accident is usually just a tragedy.